Probably a stupid question about cheap ink

[ArtyGamer]

So yesterday I had to order my first replacement ink cart for my Ricoh. It's not that I don't use it much, but I initially bought the A4 machine to do mugs and phone cases then decided I wanted to branch out into full-colour shirts rather than relying on the tedious weeding of vinyl, so I bought an A3 one a couple of months later and it obviously came with a full set of high-capacity inks. Anyway, paying out £80 including delivery for one ink is something I've never had to do in my twenty-odd years of doing design, and it was a bitter pill to swallow.

Then, during my travels on eBay looking for some DVD box sets I stumbled across a company in the UK selling 'Korean' inks at £54 for a full set. This is why I know it's a stupid question. If it's £80 for ONE Sublijet-R ink (even though Coralgraph sent me a Visi-sub, which I'm hoping it just as good) then a full set of four for £54 must mean that the ink is crap.

But I just thought I'd ask anyway, in case I was jumping to the wrong conclusion. Also, if anyone knows where to get the high-capacity Ricoh inks for a better price, I'd really appreciate it as I'm going to have to buy the other three inks in the next week or so.

[purpledragon]

Its not a question of how good the ink is its more a legal question. I understand that some korean inks are very good. I myself have used manuku inks again very good butheres where it gets all legal.
Sawgrass hold the patent /license what ever you wanna call it on small format printer inks what this means is no one in the uk (and probably worldwise) can legally produce or use sublimation inks in a small format printer by using the inks you are breaking laws and sawgrass can and do sue. As such this gives sawgrass a monopoly on inks for small format inks btw small format according to sawgrass is less than 42 inches wide. Because legally you can only use sawgrass inks sawgrass can and do charge stupid money. Its not always a case of if other ink is good or bad. For example 25ml of ink from sawgrass cost if memory serves about 60 quid from say bms but if you own a large format printer and can prove it you can byuy the exact same ink for 80quid a litre. Why ? Well its simple for small format printers sawgrass have no competition and as such can saftly charge what they like knowing you have to buy their ink but for large format they have plenty of competition which drives their price down . Hope that explains it
Brett

[ArtyGamer]

Wow. I'm not sure whether to be impressed by their business acumen at being able to ensure that they are the only people legally able to do what they do, or be appalled at how much they take advantage of this by charging ridiculous amounts in the process. The latter, probably.

Look like I'll continue to pay through the nose, then. I wasn't keen on taking chances with my tech by using non-official inks anyway, but when I have no choice for legal purposes... that sort of stings. I can't stand when business railroad others into a position where they have no choice but to buy proprietary stuff. I've always used official inks with all my Epson and HP machines in the past, but it was always my choice to do so. That's a real shame.

Thanks for clearing that up though; I had no idea.

[pisquee]

Sawgrass hold the patent /license what ever you wanna call it on small format printer inks

More accurately, Sawgrass holds patent(s) for their formulation for sublimation inks. any other company is free to create sublimation inks as long as it doesn't do it in the same way as Sawgrass have. The only problem is that would have to be prepared to defend their ink in a huge patent battle in the courts, and prove that their ink is different from what Sawgrass have patents for.
Also, there is no mention in the patent of sizes of printer. The splitting of the market at 42" came as part of an out-of-court settlement with BASF (IIRC)

[purpledragon]

More accurately, Sawgrass holds patent(s) for their formulation for sublimation inks. any other company is free to create sublimation inks as long as it doesn't do it in the same way as Sawgrass have. The only problem is that would have to be prepared to defend their ink in a huge patent battle in the courts, and prove that their ink is different from what Sawgrass have patents for.
Also, there is no mention in the patent of sizes of printer. The splitting of the market at 42" came as part of an out-of-court settlement with BASF (IIRC)

you say potatoe i say potartoe
:biggrin:

[socialgiraffe]

or be appalled at how much they take advantage of this by charging ridiculous amounts in the process. The latter, probably.

Lucky for you that I do not hold the patent then as I would charge more if I had invested the money and time to develop it

I know the carts seem like a lot of money, but per page it is not a significant cost.

you say potatoe i say potartoe

I say chips.....

[Andrew]

Wow. I'm not sure whether to be impressed by their business acumen at being able to ensure that they are the only people legally able to do what they do, or be appalled at how much they take advantage of this by charging ridiculous amounts in the process. The latter, probably.

Look like I'll continue to pay through the nose, then. I wasn't keen on taking chances with my tech by using non-official inks anyway, but when I have no choice for legal purposes... that sort of stings. I can't stand when business railroad others into a position where they have no choice but to buy proprietary stuff. I've always used official inks with all my Epson and HP machines in the past, but it was always my choice to do so. That's a real shame.

Thanks for clearing that up though; I had no idea.

Most people on this forum wouldn't be printing through Dye Sublimation if it wasn't for Sawgrass. I doubt any other suppliers were looking to help the hobbyist or very small volume users get into the printing game with this method. Sawgrass opened up a new area for most of us and invested to make it possible. Yes, the inks are quite expensive when you look at it as an individual purchase. When you look at it as a cost in producing a unique mug or phone case then it is a bargain imo.

I personally think the Large format inks should be supplied in higher volumes (5ltr) to take away the temptation and keep a level playing field for the smaller volume users.

[pisquee]

I wasn't wanting to turn the thread into a Sawgrass argument, I just wanted the explanation of the patent to be clearer, and more accurate, as it isn't true that Sawgrass holds a patent for sublimation ink as a whole, this isn't how patents work, they just have a patent on their method of how to make disperse dyes into a formulation that can run through computer printers without clogging (in the bottle, or printer) or activating in print heads which use heat.
The chemicals used, both the disperse dyes and chemicals to protect the dyes are listed in the patent docs.
I have nothing against Sawgrass holding patents for their R&D, and they deserve to have them, especially for the protecting the dye in printers which use heat in the print head. But the idea that no other company could possibly come up with a sublimation ink which doesn't infringe their patents doesn't ring true.

[James990]

Who is offering the chips, any fish to go with it? Well it is Friday after all, traditional fish and chips day!!!!!!!

[purpledragon]

Most people on this forum wouldn't be printing through Dye Sublimation if it wasn't for Sawgrass. I doubt any other suppliers were looking to help the hobbyist or very small volume users get into the printing game with this method. Sawgrass opened up a new area for most of us and invested to make it possible. Yes, the inks are quite expensive when you look at it as an individual purchase. When you look at it as a cost in producing a unique mug or phone case then it is a bargain imo.

I personally think the Large format inks should be supplied in higher volumes (5ltr) to take away the temptation and keep a level playing field for the smaller volume users.

whilst what you say is true ie sawgrass catering for hobbyists etc lets not paint sawgrass as saints (or devils for that matter) sawgrass are a business not a charity they have seen a gap in the market and exploited it yes they give a lot of help to the small format user but small format users tend to turn into larger volume users ergo more business, sawgrass in my opinion have used clever marketing and the use of patents (or what ever you want to call them ) to grow their own business .
This isnt a bad thing they have spent time developing and supporting small format users but this is for profit not for the good of their health . the problem is we in this country seem to think that making a profit is a dirty word and should do everythiong for free . personally i think small format inks are grossly over priced but if im honest and i were sawgrass then id probably charge what i could get away with too . After all you dont have to buy their ink you could go into another industry or even use illegal inks should you be so inclined and want to take the risk . I know for definate theres a few on here who do just that and i dare say sawgrass know this too