Has Orca Coatings changed?

[JSR]

There is something each and every one of us can do, either as customers or suppliers to have the matter addressed. Complain to the ASA.

Unfortunately, we as the buyer can't do anything. If you read my other posts, it's virtually impossible to get details of any dishwasher-safe claims from other coatings. We can't challenge Listawood, because we don't have access to documents that would disprove their claims.

It's down to the supplier, or the manufacturer of the coated mugs, to dispute Listawood's claims. If they're unable or unwilling to do so, we can only presume that they agree with those claims. And so, Listawood have won the battle without firing a shot.

I can't help buy admire their boldness. The one truth to come out of this situation is that none of us *really* have any proof whatsoever that any coating is dishwasher safe. It demonstrates what an incredible weak position we're in if someone was to challenge our claims of dishwasher-proof mugs. Listawood have exposed this flaw in the industry.

[Matt Quinn]

Unfortunately, we as the buyer can't do anything. If you read my other posts, it's virtually impossible to get details of any dishwasher-safe claims from other coatings. We can't challenge Listawood, because we don't have access to documents that would disprove their claims.

No; actually we can and (IMHO) we should... When you phone the Police to report a crime you don't have the evidence to secure a conviction; and it's not necessarilty your job to supply it either!

Clearly there is information at large that contradicts their claims... Whether that evidence is scientific or anecdotal is immaterial. - In law the onus is not on the consumer or competitor to prove that claims of this nature are false... Although good grounds for suspicion are needed (and apparent here).

The onus is squarely upon the advertiser to provide evidence of their claims...

So it's not up to you, or me, or indeed anyone supplying RN coated mugs to PROVE Listawood's claim is true - it's up to them on both counts... i.e. that their coating IS as dishwasher safe as they claim and that it is, in that respect, unique in Europe.

It's not a bold move - unless they have the proof it's simply a dishonest one in my opinion. And one that stands to work on the basis it unduly takes the food out of other folk's kid's mouths....

Mellowdramatic perhaps... But there's an old saying; 'For evil to flourish good me need do only nothing'...

Costs you nothing to complain; what might the damage these people are inflicting upon you cost your business?

- As I has cause to post on another thread; I've already reached the stage where my business analysis tells me the traditional mugs and coasters aren't a part of the market I see as worthwhile... Others DO still HAVE a margin they see as worthwhile - but for how long when tactics like this are deployed?

Blank mugs £5 each anyone? Or maybe even their gameplan is even more Machiavellian? To shut down the small operators completely by strangling their supply chain?

[JSR]

No; actually we can and (IMHO) we should... When you phone the Police to report a crime you don't have the evidence to secure a conviction; and it's not necessarilty your job to supply it either!

No one gets locked up for one person saying that someone else is a thief. Without proof it's just one person's word against another - innocent until proven guilty.

Likewise, without proof against Listawood's claims, it's just one person's word against another. The ASA isn't going to act against anyone for a bit of business competition mud-slinging. There needs to be reasonable doubt at the very least, even if there isn't the proof, but the reasonable doubt needs to be backed up by something.

Without other suppliers prepared to stand against the claims or, more preferably, the suppliers of other coatings offering documented data of dishwasher-proof claims, there is nothing anyone can do.

What do you think the ASA will do?

ASA: "Listawood, prove that your mugs last 1000+ washes."
Listawood: "Here's documented proof of our in-house tests".
ASA: "Listawood, prove your claim that other PhotoMugs won't last a tenth as long as Duraglaze."
Listawood: "Here's in-house documented proof that a non-dishwasher coated mug faded after ten washes."
ASA: "Accusation dismissed."

There are mugs out there that aren't dishwasher-safe. Everyone knows that. We need support from those who sell/coat RN, Orca, and other coatings - by way of documented proof of tests. With such proof, we can all sell non-Duraglaze mugs with proof of durability. Then everyone will see Listawood's claims for what they are, and their claims will cease to have any validity.

But suppliers and manufacturers just don't seem interested in supporting us, so there really is nothing we can do except resort to verbal mudslinging - and that won't get us anywhere.

[Ian M]

I do know from one supplier who told me they & a few other suppliers have contacted Listawood to say they are unhappy with the claims regarding the Orca coated mugs.

I think their latest claim will just annoy those suppliers even more & I do know that some of those suppliers do buy from Listawood themselves.

The supplier I talked to did say that Orca test their mugs through their own dishwashers that run 24/7 for at least 10,000 wash cycles.

Makes me wonder if someone at Listawood used to work for Sunny Delight or did they do the marketing for Persil Power. It will be only a matter of time that they'll start to loose customers through their false claims & I for one will never buy anything from them again.

[Matt Quinn]

No one gets locked up for one person saying that someone else is a thief. Without proof it's just one person's word against another - innocent until proven guilty.

And the ASA won't take action without investigating the matter properly either... No-one has suggested otherwise.

- You seemed to be taking the view that 'somehow' it was up to us to make the case against Listawood as if the ASA were the courts and we were the prosecutors... I'm merely pointing out in the great scheme of thing that it's THE ASA's job to do the investigating. - They exist to Police the advertising industry!

Likewise, without proof against Listawood's claims, it's just one person's word against another. The ASA isn't going to act against anyone for a bit of business competition mud-slinging. There needs to be reasonable doubt at the very least, even if there isn't the proof, but the reasonable doubt needs to be backed up by something.

Again; you'll find the ASA's very existance pivots on trying to prevent 'mud slinging' of exactly this kind. To support their claim Listawood will need to produce credible reports from proper testing facilities...

Mud-slinging has no legitimate place in business competition; and ultimately there is a Defamation Act to deal with instances of that... Dubious claims have no place either, and when such claims appear in advertising there is an legitimate body to deal with it...

Without other suppliers prepared to stand against the claims or, more preferably, the suppliers of other coatings offering documented data of dishwasher-proof claims, there is nothing anyone can do.

I've just pointed you in the direction of a legitimate regulatory authority with which you have the right to raise your concerns. And which is obliged to investigate your complaint... Nothing anyone can do?

You, and everyone else who might be concerned by this issue can complain to the authorities... It'll cost you nothing save for a little time. The alternative IS indeed to do nothing (i.e. all you need to do to let evil flourish), but we DO all have the choice as to whether that's all we do...

One other thing that occurs is to take our business elsewhere and not deal with Listawood.

What do you think the ASA will do?

ASA: "Listawood, prove that your mugs last 1000+ washes."
Listawood: "Here's documented proof of our in-house tests".
ASA: "Listawood, prove your claim that other PhotoMugs won't last a tenth as long as Duraglaze."
Listawood: "Here's in-house documented proof that a non-dishwasher coated mug faded after ten washes."
ASA: "Accusation dismissed."

I seriously doubt it. - A couple of recent examples.

http://asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudicati ... 50309.aspx

http://asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudicati ... 50320.aspx

Unrelated industries of course; but they do serve to illustrate a little of how the ASA works...

- Note the level of technical detail they required of Pressplay; and that they didn't just take their word for it!

Odd isn't it that Listawood are making this claim; yet present no information as to how it was tested. Likewise the notion that this product is unique in Europe in terms of its durability.

- Normally manufacturers are only too keen to cite test data! - Witness those silly cosmetics adds with statistics superimposed in tiny white writing. It's the old 'nine out of ten cats' or 'washes whiter' scenario... The claim needs to stand up to scruitiny. - and extensive testing is a great advertising tool- Seen the drawer-testing machine in Ikea?

Why nothing credible from Listawood?

There are mugs out there that aren't dishwasher-safe. Everyone knows that. We need support from those who sell/coat RN, Orca, and other coatings - by way of documented proof of tests. With such proof, we can all sell non-Duraglaze mugs with proof of durability. Then everyone will see Listawood's claims for what they are, and their claims will cease to have any validity.

But suppliers and manufacturers just don't seem interested in supporting us, so there really is nothing we can do except resort to verbal mudslinging - and that won't get us anywhere.

...So, when Listawood corner the market via these 'techniques', and you're driven out of business, you'll be able to blame the manufacturers and suppliers who didn't suport you? It'll be all their fault then?

- Not saying they don't have a role and a responsibility. And who knows? - As we 'speak' lawyers may be beavering away writing stiff letters on thick card. Or the manufacturers may be plotting a counter-strike ad campaign?

... But you, I and anyone else who may feel concerned by this do have something we can do.

My opinion - and just that - is that if you know think 'offence' is being committed then you have a responsibility to ensure the proper authorities are aware of it. That way, whatever or whoever else contributes to an eventually untennible situation, one cannot be included in that number...

The opposite tack, carried to its final conclusion, gives rise to the 'Kitty Genovese' type scenario... Mellowdramatic again I know but... Darley and Latané had an interesting take on it...

At the very least a raft of independent complaints to the ASA (from say members of certain forums) will result in Listawood receiving something of a 'message'.

[Ian M]

Have found out today that Listawood tested just 3 mugs of each coating to get their results & no dishwasher was used or harmed in the tests.

[bms]

I presume that didn't come from Listawood, so how are you so sure?

[Ian M]

I presume that didn't come from Listawood, so how are you so sure?

Martin, Listawood sent me the test reports so, I'm very sure.

[Andrew]

Any chance of seeing this report or reply Ian, either on here or by PM.

[Paul]

here would be better tho