continuation of: epson S21 with CISS

[Ian M]

I think it might be best to bear in mind what happend with Sky over the football in the European Court last week as they were shouting out about their copyright being infringed. I know there won't be a full ruling till later in the year but, it doesn't seem to be going Sky's way which could open the flood gates.

[Ian M]

Paul, from what I have been told in the past it does matter what goes in to the formulation of the ink as this then governs the quality of it. Remember what some Chinese business did with the baby milk not so long ago. It looked & tasted like babies milk but there was something else in there which killed a few babies. If you bought a cheap Rolex watch in China there is a pretty good chance it isn't a genuine Rolex but a cheap copy.

[Paul]

is bit extreme this one lol
I have been told in the past that many things. just to find out hat they told me that only to make couple of more quid of me

[DREAMGLASS]

It would also be good to remember that sublimation has been around since the 1930's. Long before a certain company even existed.

Inkjet printers are a relative newcomer, but trust me you can put large format ink into small format printers with no problems at all. The producers of large format inks sell in high volume to fabric printers etc and they have substantial financial resources to challenge any actions in the courts. A certain ink manufacturer would be unwise to ever challenge those bigger players use of sublimation ink in inkjet printers (irrespective of the printer carriage size).

Hopefully one day someone will challenge the 'patent' through the monopolies commission, as apart from the print width, there is very little difference between small format and large format printers.

[JSR]

I think the key question here is - how do we know that expensive ink is any better quality than cheap ink? It could just be cheap ink marked up to a higher price.

After all, when it comes to large-format printers the price per ml is suddenly a lot cheaper. Why? Because the lack of a patent means that there's more competition in the marketplace.

The reason OEM ink is so expensive is due, in part, to the OEM investing a proportion of the money back into R&D to improve their range of printers. Compare Epson printers from the mid 90s to today - they're a world apart. A third-party is just producing the ink and doesn't need to charge high prices because they're not investing in printer development, but they can invest in their ink if they so chose.

It seems, though, that we're stuck in the position of having expensive ink and no benefit to show for it. It doesn't clog any less often than anyone else's ink, and we're still putting the wrong ink into the wrong printer (because, despite how much money we spend on high priced ink, there is still no printer designed for dye-sublimation ink).

What would be better for this industry is to make the ink cheaper and let us create our own profile. To buy a CISS with Artanium ink costs around £300, and you'll get a "close enough is good enough" profile for your trouble. It would be much better to buy the ink for £60 and then invest the rest in a profiling device of your own. You could then put the ink in whatever printer you like, make your own profile whenever you need to, and produce the best prints you're capable of.

But that sounds too much like common sense. Instead we end up with our money going down a bottomless pit of high ink prices and a profile that has us forever saying "my colours aren't right". Daft, isn't it?

[JSR]

It would also be good to remember that sublimation has been around since the 1930's. Long before a certain company even existed.

Inkjet printers are a relative newcomer, but trust me you can put large format ink into small format printers with no problems at all. The producers of large format inks sell in high volume to fabric printers etc and they have substantial financial resources to challenge any actions in the courts. A certain ink manufacturer would be unwise to ever challenge those bigger players use of sublimation ink in inkjet printers (irrespective of the printer carriage size).

Hopefully one day someone will challenge the 'patent' through the monopolies commission, as apart from the print width, there is very little difference between small format and large format printers.

I believe the reason there is no challenge in the large format market is because the patent applies only to small format printers, so there would never be a challenge in the large format market.

The last hope we had of getting this sorted out was a few years back with the last big US player in the dye-sublimation market. The challenge was proceeding through the courts due to the wording of the original patent. Unfortunately, despite promises to their customers, the company eventually "sold out" and the challenge dropped.

I don't think we'll ever see this situation resolved, which was why there was a movement for a time looking at laser toner sublimation (which would have avoided the patent issues).

[DREAMGLASS]

A lot of the large format inks are produced by the ink divisions of large chemical and coating companies. Some of the end users have banks of large format printers fitted with roll feeds and those individual businesses get through gallons of sublimation ink per week. They produce fashion fabrics, flags, industrial banners and signage, plus many other items. That level of sublimation printing is a multi million global industry and would rapidly respond through the courts to any restrictions on its supplies.

[Justin]

I don't think we'll ever see this situation resolved, which was why there was a movement for a time looking at laser toner sublimation (which would have avoided the patent issues).

Perhaps herein lies the solution. Finding an alternative sublimation method. Maybe something as simple as getting a large format printer produced for a reasonable price or finding that loop hole that means you can class your small format machine as large format.

There are arguments from every angle and to play devils advocate for just a moment. If you break down the price of your printed item and see how much the ink cost for that mug/coaster etc. there is still plenty of scope for a very healthy profit indeed. If the patent was no longer in force the market would be flooded with cheap inks, some good, some not so good. Everyone would be dye subbing so the competition would become even greater. This may not reflect my personal opinion entirely but must be taken into account.

Personally I do feel that the supported inks are greatly overpriced, due to the fact that no-one else can enter the market place. I always compare it to illegal downloads.....if the cost of a genuine CD/game etc. was reduced by say 50% surely this would reduce the number of illegal downloads...wouldn't we all ooner have the nicely printed case and disk but don't want to pay £15 for an album, £40 for a game? Manufacturers argue that games for example cost millions to develop but i feel it's a numbers game....bring down the cost and sell far far more.

[Ian M]

A lot of the large format inks are produced by the ink divisions of large chemical and coating companies. Some of the end users have banks of large format printers fitted with roll feeds and those individual businesses get through gallons of sublimation ink per week. They produce fashion fabrics, flags, industrial banners and signage, plus many other items. That level of sublimation printing is a multi million global industry and would rapidly respond through the courts to any restrictions on its supplies.

That is why I said about the Sky case in the European Court last week. There will be a lot of other industries watching this & as I said if it goes against Sky which it appears to be then the floodgates will open wide.

[DREAMGLASS]

In the meantime there are 'alternative suppliers'. China is a big country and somehow I don't think they are ever going to be dictated to by any manufacturer from the west. If China can ignore the governments of powerful countries, then a small manufacturer waving a 'patent' is realistically never going to get very far.