DSF

Don't whinge???? I am the one with about £1300 to £1400 worth of junk and ink here not you!!!! Good luck mate is all I say. I have found a solution that works so I hope your machine keeps going and if and when it breaks you remember your whinge comment!

Janners mugs. You forgot about another option. Another supported option is to get epson and supported but not always work. So only coz something is supported not means it will work fault less.

Janners Mugs;45708 wrote:1/ Buy Ricoh, plug and play for sublimation due to the support for colour correction, ink cartrdges that fit etc. If it it goes wrong I may get support, no guarentee, however a good relationship with your supplier will help (in essence you support them they suport you).

You get "colour correction" support by means of an ICC profile with the authorised Epson printers, too. Historically, Epson printers appear to have more clogging issues with dye-sub ink than Ricoh but that probably has a lot to do with Ricoh printers being fairly new while Epson printers have been around for years. Many more Epson printers have been sold for dye-sub use than Ricoh and you only ever hear from people when they complain. Statistically, Epson printers are probably more reliable than Ricoh but we won't know that for certain until Ricoh printers have been used for dye-sub for a few years.

Reading other forums, Ricoh printers seem to have a habit of suffering from "mainboard failures" - regardless of what ink you have in it. However, Ricoh are notorious for not wanting to even talk to you if you've put someone else's ink in their printer.

The only way to enter this business sensibly is to *expect* problems, regardless of what printer you have. Prepare for it, plan for it, have a back-up printer ready. That's the only way not to be disappointed *when* something goes wrong. Sure, maybe Sawgrass will support you if you tick enough boxes to qualify, but you don't want to be waiting around for them to do so without a printer.

Plan for failure, expect the worst, and be pleasantly surprised if the worst doesn't happen for quite some time.

Janners Mugs;45708 wrote:2/ Buy Another printer which isn't plug and play, cheaper but no support if it goes wrong.

That is an option, but probably not for the beginner. It took me years to step out of the "apparent" safe-zone of Sawgrass appoved options. I wish I'd done it years ago, but you have to be prepared to learn along the way. If you're a good learner, it's an exciting path to walk down. But, if you're the type of person who expects someone else to solve your problems for you, then it's not the best choice. Personally, I've always valued learning these things for myself - because that's the only way to get out from under the thumb of some expensive "solution" that isn't really a solution.

If you read other posts on this forum, you'll discover that a number of people are now getting very excited about using Brother printers - something Sawgrass won't even consider. It's this eagerness to push the boundaries of the dye-sub frontiers that excites me. If it doesn't excite you then stick with the "authorised" options and trust in your supplier.

Janners Mugs;45708 wrote:BigAl says
"Its a shame British suppliers didnt have the balls to stick two fingers up to the American courts and carry on selling alternate products instead of running around like headless chickens and getting into bed with the company"

If somebody is so sure that there is a market there for other inks, why don't they become the UK agent and supply the inks?

I tend to be a bit short with people due to my attitutude of "don't whinge..... just do", but I mean no harm or offence.

Sawgrass apparently own the patent for the use of dye-sub inks in desktop printers. The patent, though, has never really been challenged. The last big organisation to do so settled on the steps of the courthouse. Now there's no one left who's big enough to challenge them, and everyone else who tries to sell supposed "unauthorised" inks quickly gets frightened out of doing so by Sawgrass's legal bods.

Some people import non-Sawgrass inks from places like China but, for obvious reasons, we can't discuss that on this forum. It does seem, though, that China ink producers aren't targetted by Sawgrass - they only target any UK (or US) distributor who attempts to sell such inks.

Janners Mugs;45708 wrote:New to this whole thing so likely to get my bottom kicked from pillar to post, but I take no offence, as oppinions make they world go round.

No one's going to kick your bottom for asking questions. If you don't know the answers, the only way to learn is to ask questions.

Sawgrass is being challenged again in the US over this farce. Their argument for the exclusive use of their products in small format machines but not large format machines is they had a secret anti-clogging agent added to the ink. What a load of snake oil rubbish, if inks wont clog large format machine they wont clog desktop machines and anyhow Sawgrass inks DO CLOG DESKTOP MACHINES as I have found out, see my collection of useless tat below. For the record I have been in this game for nearly 20 years and have had many large and small format machines both solvent, water based and laser and currently have 7 printers in the shop so I think I am qualified to say I know what I am talking about and BTW are you aware Dye Sub was first invented in the 1920's!!!

Hi BigAl, I mean no offence, but wait for it………however
With response to
Don't whinge???? I am the one with about £1300 to £1400 worth of junk and ink here not you!!!! Good luck mate is all I say. I have found a solution that works so I hope your machine keeps going and if and when it breaks you remember your whinge comment!
That’s business, over 20 years working for myself has taught me that. Yes it hurts, breathe in, breathe out, and move on.

Hi JSR
I’ll look at the Epson option (I am a slow Janner by Janner standards, and Janners are SLOW).
The Brother option is probably a step in my wellies too far.
I guess Sawgrass don’t challenge in China as they know there is no hope!

Hi Paul.
Your input on the forum fascinates me, you obviously have a lot of know how tucked away there, and the fact that you share it is brilliant!

Back to JSR
I try to ask questions in life, but I appear to have a flame thrower permanently attached. I ask a straight question, give a straight answer.

The info on the Ricoh is very useful (board problems hmmmm), so a thread that I have found very illuminating.
Thanks All
Janners

BigAl
With 20 years experience I can see your brains will be worth picking as well.

I like the bit about small versus large machines, how odd.

I am intrigued that nobody appears to be able to unclog the machines, fuel injector cleaner? As in soak the heads in it as it's very flammable!

Of course it hurts and I do breathe in and out but still dont see why I should say nothing when i have been treated so badly. Don't worry its not the first time and won't be the last I have been ripped off or bought a turkey but I don't roll over and take it lying down sorry. To date i sent a 10k thermal printer (SignArt Nautilus) back to Graphtyp UK who originally sold it and wouldnt refund my money till I kicked up a fuss with their MD and I sent a thermal printer back to Roland who to their credit made a full refund without fuss and also appologised for the crap product yet I know blokes who are using these as door stops who didnt complain. Roland are one of the better companies IMHO and I have used their products for years.

And to the comment why don't I be a dealer for the guy I am using product, well i would but he is nervous because they are an American company but as soon as this is sorted watch this space.

BigAl;45716 wrote:And to the comment why don't I be a dealer for the guy I am using product, well i would but he is nervous because they are an American company but as soon as this is sorted watch this space.

You could be on to something... I'll watch, hope it comes off!

BigAl;45713 wrote:Sawgrass is being challenged again in the US over this farce. Their argument for the exclusive use of their products in small format machines but not large format machines is they had a secret anti-clogging agent added to the ink. What a load of snake oil rubbish, if inks wont clog large format machine they wont clog desktop machines and anyhow Sawgrass inks DO CLOG DESKTOP MACHINES as I have found out, see my collection of useless tat below. For the record I have been in this game for nearly 20 years and have had many large and small format machines both solvent, water based and laser and currently have 7 printers in the shop so I think I am qualified to say I know what I am talking about and BTW are you aware Dye Sub was first invented in the 1920's!!!

While I don't have your 20 years of experience, I recall reading some documentation during the Sawgrass vs TOG challenge (the one that was ultimately settled outside of court). The documentation I read was that Sawgrass had developed an encapsulation agent that allowed the dye-sub inks to be used in printers with thermal printheads (the HP & Canon bubblejet type that was popular at the time). When the Epson desktop printers became more prolific, such an agent wasn't required any more.

I don't know what other patents they hold, but they apparently have many. Sawgrass don't claim to have invented dye-sub, as indicated in that they don't challenge the sales of dye-sub ink for use in large format printers. They only go after those who sell dye-sub ink for desktop printers (which they seem to class as anything under 44" - that's some desk they must have!).

Who is challenging them now in the US? I'd like to read up on it.

Why not large format please answer that, the technology is identical, is it the snake oil they add lol. The difference is if a head goes down on my versacam I get a bill for £1110 as I had last week so I am sure if the ink was damaging no one would use it in large format machines.