He ain't Epson, he's my Brother...

[bms]

Looking at it from the manufacturers and the distributors point of view, more printers to support means greater complexity and more support issues. In an ideal world, I'd prefer just the one printer for sublimation printing, that worked and didn't require too much support, but at the other extreme I wouldn't want an endless supply of printers to try to support that each had it's own querks/problems/issues and different ink supply systems. Stocking all these permutations would be confusing (as well as expensive!).

I can see the point of view of Sawgrass that they want a couple of supported platforms in the A4 and A3 market just in case one manufacturer changes the model/ cartridges (whatever) and then there is always continuing of supply of an A4/ A3 printer platform whilst tests are conducted on new models coming to the market.

I can also see the point of view being expressed in various threads looking to get a cheap(er) printer and cheap(er) inks/ printing. Rolling this logic forward could result in a dramatic reduction in the profitability of the sector. Not sure how many people read Michael Porter and know of his Five Forces but these are about competitive advantage - enabling you guys to sell at the price you do to make the profits you want. Such competitive advantage is achieved, amogst others, by preventing the entry of new competition and a barrier to entry of new competition is the set up costs of the business. If cheap(er) printers and cheap(er) inks/ printing were readily available then you would have a huge number of people 'dambling' in the market, reducing prices and the profitability for all - thereby starting a downward spiral in selling prices/ profits.

So I see both points of view - from the manufacturer of the inks/ systems in reducing complexity but this in turn creates barriers to entry as prices are high(er) than if a cheap(er) printer was supported. Likewise I understand why the end users want a cheap(er) route to print to earn profits. A middle ground may be achieved by those that want to experiment with other printers to gain their own knowledge and competitive advantage.

Just my rambling thoughts...

[Ian M]

I have to admit you do make a good point Martin.

Ian

[Paul]

I would like to ask what kind of suport we can count on from sawgrass?

In an ideal world, I'd prefer just the one printer for sublimation printing, that worked and didn't require too much support, but at the other extreme I wouldn't want an endless supply of printers to try to support that each had it's own querks/problems/issues and different ink supply systems. Stocking all these permutations would be confusing (as well as expensive!).

but this way every one would have free choose of what printer they want to buy. so you dont have to stock them. you can have couple if you want and promote them.
any way... what kind of warranty do I have? Is that true that if I use sublimation ink in one of my epson I loos warranty? if so. if anything goes wrong etc... will you (as a supplier) fix the printer for me? or will sawgrass do it? Thats what I call support.

If cheap(er) printers and cheap(er) inks/ printing were readily available then you would have a huge number of people 'dambling' in the market, reducing prices and the profitability for all - thereby starting a downward spiral in selling prices/ profits.

and thats why artanium cost £60 per 125ml to stop us have a profit

[bms]

Is that true that if I use sublimation ink in one of my epson I loos warranty? if so. if anything goes wrong etc... will you (as a supplier) fix the printer for me? or will sawgrass do it? Thats what I call support.

Evidence suggests the answer to both those questions is "Yes"

[JSR]

Just my rambling thoughts...

Well, I'll leave it at that.

Probably unsurprisingly, I have much to say on the subject but, given the unique way in which the desktop dye-sublimation market is set-up, I wouldn't want to risk saying something that might bring down the wrath of our gods vidit herba .

[Paul]

Is that true that if I use sublimation ink in one of my epson I loos warranty? if so. if anything goes wrong etc... will you (as a supplier) fix the printer for me? or will sawgrass do it? Thats what I call support.

Evidence suggests the answer to both those questions is "Yes"

so you and sawgrass can actualy fix printers???
I dont get that
so... I can buy lets say B1100 in PC WORLD. convert it in to sublimation printer with artanium inks. if printer broke down I can send it to sawgrass? As they claim that B1100 is "supported printer"


another think is: If sawgrass hold the pattent for desktop printers and they only support few of the epson ones is that mean If I use lets say BROTHER (whitch is not suport) with 3rd party inks I braking the law? r they hold the paptent for not supported printers

[bms]

so... I can buy lets say B1100 in PC WORLD. convert it in to sublimation printer with artanium inks. if printer broke down I can send it to sawgrass? As they claim that B1100 is "supported printer"

If you buy a printer and ink package from a distributor, and the printer fails because of the ink within the first 12 months, and Epson/ Ricoh will not repair it then my experience has been that Sawgrass will step in - had it once with a Ricoh GX7000. If the manufacturer says it will work, and it doesn't, then you have recourse from the distributor/ Sawgrass.

Same applies to JetTec compatible ink in printers - the manufacturer if the ink guarantees the ink will work and if the printer clogs because of the ink, and the ink is purchased from an authorised distributor, then the manufacturer of the ink will repair/ replace the printer.

If you buy your inks/ printers from other sources apart from the authorised distributors then you may not be covered by such comprehensive support.

I use lets say BROTHER (whitch is not suport) with 3rd party inks I braking the law?

Not sure about the actual legal position, but if you have any problems with the printer then you're on your own. As it's not supported then you try/ use the ink at your own risk. Same applies to any other Epson printer apart from the officially supported models.

[Paul]

hmm. thanks MArtin! I got it now.
but its a bit wired that they only support printer bought of them. pc world or amazon have them too! same printers! most of the time they are much cheaper too

[bms]

but its a bit wired that they only support printer bought of them. pc world or amazon have them too! same printers! more time much cheaper too

Probably because it can get complicated if you buy from a third party - some suppliers do add on quite a premium to the price of the printers which can make it expensive, but I guess their argument is you pay extra for the support.

[JSR]

I was going to stay out of it (honest!), but I'm confused now about how "support" is defined.

but its a bit wired that they only support printer bought of them. pc world or amazon have them too! same printers! more time much cheaper too

Probably because it can get complicated if you buy from a third party - some suppliers do add on quite a premium to the price of the printers which can make it expensive, but I guess their argument is you pay extra for the support.

I must be short-sighted.

In the years since I began doing sublimation, I've never seen a notice on a supplier's website, or on Sawgrass's website, that says "we'll fix your printer if it's bust". However, in the past I have read notices on more than one authorised supplier's website which said "buy your printer from elsewhere, it'll be cheaper" (or words to that effect).

If our printers really are covered, why doesn't anyone say so in giant neon lettering? It would immediately make the super-high cost of the ink justifiable.

Doing a bit of research, I've uncovered this document at http://www.sawgrassink.com/v.php?pg=599 which states -

What we will do:
Provide you, at the discretion of Sawgrass Technologies, with either replacement parts for your existing Bulk Ink System unit, a new Bulk Ink System unit, or at our option, a refurbished Bulk Ink System unit. The exchange is under warranty for the remainder of the original products’ warranty period or 90 days, whichever is longer. The replacement will be shipped to you via ground shipment. Any rush shipments will be freight prepaid.

Limitations of Warranty
THERE ARE NO OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. SAWGRASS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR LOSS OF PROFIT OR OTHER ECONOMIC LOSS, OR FOR INDIRECT, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER SIMILAR DAMAGES.

This explicitly states that only the bulk ink system is covered - not the printer.

This document is on the Sawgrass US website. I can't find any such similar document anywhere on the Sawgrass Europe website.

Providing a repair/fix as part of the support is something I would think Sawgrass (and the suppliers) should be shouting about so we all know about it. It would do more to stop people going for cheap printers/cheap ink than saying nothing at all. Chinese whispers isn't very confidence-building.